rwanda is a great example to use. is stability spreading through africa or do we have to face things like this? >> i think it's spreading in most parts, not in all. you still have pockets. in fact, places where there is -- countries close, the majority of africa is is seeing this progress in terms of stability and governing. there are many stories out there, but these are the stories also that we need to focus on and work together to try and address that. it all comes down to governing to leadership and making sure we understand what needs to be done and our responsible -- unfortunately, we don't find this everywhere. >> when do you think rwanda is going to be ready for full, conless democracy? >> it's a difficult question. one needs to look at history of the countries that have stability and full blown democracy. they have probably taken not decades, but hundreds of years to do that. it will be, i think, unfair to just think that you would be there, but you need to be on the move, on the journey to being there. that'